heisetax
Jul 12, 08:32 AM
Yeah, I hope apple lower their price point for the pro models. It is way too much. I love mac computer, but come on; the prices vs the PC suckass.
I know Macs are way better then PC, but PCs are good tool too.
Unless Apple bucks their own trend of charging more for the Intel Mac replacements over the G4/G5 units, we may be in for a rather large increase at the higher end on up. Intel processors cost more than G4/G5 processors. The high end of any processor costs a lot more than the slower ones of the same type. Does all of this add up to price decreases or price increases? As much as I would like to see a price decrease, to me that just does not add up.
Bill the TaxMan
I know Macs are way better then PC, but PCs are good tool too.
Unless Apple bucks their own trend of charging more for the Intel Mac replacements over the G4/G5 units, we may be in for a rather large increase at the higher end on up. Intel processors cost more than G4/G5 processors. The high end of any processor costs a lot more than the slower ones of the same type. Does all of this add up to price decreases or price increases? As much as I would like to see a price decrease, to me that just does not add up.
Bill the TaxMan
sterno74
Oct 26, 02:04 PM
Besides wasn't there a thread a few weeks back which stated that the 8 Core machines run slower than the Quads?
They run at a slower clock speed than the dual cores. So if you have a very well multi-threaded app or are running lots of apps at the same time, having 8 cores might help. But otherwise you're probably better off having less but higher speed cores.
The difference between 1 and 2 cores is sizable, between 2 and 4 is decent, but as you up the number of cores you get a diminishing return because the software has to be written that much better to take advantage of it effectively. It's not like the old days where in 18 months, your system's speed effectively doubled because the clockrate double making any one process run twice as fast no matter how badly written it was.
They run at a slower clock speed than the dual cores. So if you have a very well multi-threaded app or are running lots of apps at the same time, having 8 cores might help. But otherwise you're probably better off having less but higher speed cores.
The difference between 1 and 2 cores is sizable, between 2 and 4 is decent, but as you up the number of cores you get a diminishing return because the software has to be written that much better to take advantage of it effectively. It's not like the old days where in 18 months, your system's speed effectively doubled because the clockrate double making any one process run twice as fast no matter how badly written it was.
*LTD*
Apr 28, 08:33 AM
So be it but untill that thing can run a full version of let's say Autodesk Maya and install all the plug-ins in the world I want it will still only be a mobile toy. A PC is something you work with not a fancy looking gadget. I don't see this happening in the next 5-10 years. Pack me a dual quad with HT that can run for 100 days at 100% without breaking a sweat. That's a PC.
iCal'd.
iCal'd.
Mikael
Jul 12, 05:35 PM
I find this whole discussion slightly amusing, mostly because of the apparent need to draw a distinction between "professional" and "consumer" based on slight clock frequency differences. To me, a professional platform is defined by its configurability and flexibility. A professional platform is simply one that can be configured to fit the customers every need. Although CPU performance is important, it's hardly what I'd call the defining factor of wether a system is to be regarded as "pro" or not.
I don't see any reason why a cheaper Mac Pro with a single 2.4GHz Conroe couldn't remain a machine aimed at professionals. Or does it have to have an outrageous price tag to qualify?
The whole concept of drawing a line between pro machines and machines for mere mortals seems a little "old". There's nothing really special about a PowerMac or Mac Pro anyway. Put a mid range CPU in the machine and it fits the regular consumer just as well as a professional not demanding the absolute top end CPU performance.
Maybe I've been damaged by the PC worlds lack of "pro-obsession", but I think it's a healthier approach.
Merom will underperform a Conroe under equal high loads because of thermal constraints (in unmodified systems).
It will? Do you have any source for this info? An Intel rep has said that Merom and Conroe are identical, except for a few differences having to do with p-states. This is unlikely to hinder performance at full load, so where did you get this contradicting info?
Also, the largest part of the power savings between Merom and Conroe are likely to come from reduced core voltage. You will probably be able to come very close to Merom power levels by simply reducing the core voltage of a similarly clocked Conroe.
I don't see any reason why a cheaper Mac Pro with a single 2.4GHz Conroe couldn't remain a machine aimed at professionals. Or does it have to have an outrageous price tag to qualify?
The whole concept of drawing a line between pro machines and machines for mere mortals seems a little "old". There's nothing really special about a PowerMac or Mac Pro anyway. Put a mid range CPU in the machine and it fits the regular consumer just as well as a professional not demanding the absolute top end CPU performance.
Maybe I've been damaged by the PC worlds lack of "pro-obsession", but I think it's a healthier approach.
Merom will underperform a Conroe under equal high loads because of thermal constraints (in unmodified systems).
It will? Do you have any source for this info? An Intel rep has said that Merom and Conroe are identical, except for a few differences having to do with p-states. This is unlikely to hinder performance at full load, so where did you get this contradicting info?
Also, the largest part of the power savings between Merom and Conroe are likely to come from reduced core voltage. You will probably be able to come very close to Merom power levels by simply reducing the core voltage of a similarly clocked Conroe.
danielwsmithee
Sep 12, 04:07 PM
But at what quality??? Q1 2007 is as late as end of March. HD-DVD came out in April and BluRay in -- what -- May? So almost a year later Apple introduces a device that will play *near* (i.e. lower than) DVD-quality when the market is finally warming up to HD quality disks. Dude did you miss the coverage. This thing plays HD. He played Incredibles in HD. Just because the content they are offering now is 480p does not mean that it will be 6 months from now when this is released. Also the HDMI and component connectors would be pointless if it was not HD.
balamw
Apr 12, 11:07 AM
I don't care for the difficulty involved in sharing files across OS X/Windows/Linux, but that's hardly the fault of the Mac.
Stick shared files on a NAS or in the cloud. Problem solved.
Other nags:
-Requiring 3rd-party software to stay awake when closed
My last PC laptop decided not to go to sleep one one trip, I put it away in my backpack and when I took it out the battery was drained and the sleeve was discolored by the heat.
Plus, I just love trying to shut down or log off and be told that Windows needs to install updates. Right now? WTF! If I need to shut you down it's because I need to go. Now.
This is really better?
The hilarious hillarious way that iTunes and iPhones work. It's the same way on Windows, but I think they sacrificed function for increased integration.
Here I'm with you. I keep hoping that Apple will return to their senses and split iTunes up into iMusic, iVideo, iBooks, iApps, iSync etc... Maybe they will with a fully Cocoafied iTunes replacement in Lion.
B
Stick shared files on a NAS or in the cloud. Problem solved.
Other nags:
-Requiring 3rd-party software to stay awake when closed
My last PC laptop decided not to go to sleep one one trip, I put it away in my backpack and when I took it out the battery was drained and the sleeve was discolored by the heat.
Plus, I just love trying to shut down or log off and be told that Windows needs to install updates. Right now? WTF! If I need to shut you down it's because I need to go. Now.
This is really better?
The hilarious hillarious way that iTunes and iPhones work. It's the same way on Windows, but I think they sacrificed function for increased integration.
Here I'm with you. I keep hoping that Apple will return to their senses and split iTunes up into iMusic, iVideo, iBooks, iApps, iSync etc... Maybe they will with a fully Cocoafied iTunes replacement in Lion.
B
polaris20
Apr 21, 03:14 PM
But just like Windows, it's practically impossible to have any problems unless you do something stupid.
Another analogy - if you buy a car and put the wrong type of oil in it or inflate the tyres to the wrong pressure, bad things will probably happen.
If you don't know what you're doing with your own devices then maybe you need Apple to hold your hand.
Well, there are a few problems with your theories. First of all, there are vulnerabilities in Windows that merely visiting a web page clicked on from a Google search gets your machine infected. Or, you could visit a legitimate website that has mistakenly sold ad space to people hosting malware (this has occurred with both Foxnews.com and NYTimes.com), or you can download an app that you think is legitimate, but has spyware (like PrimoPDF).
I love seeing this "As long as you know what you're doing, and you're not an idiot, you're fine" attitude.
Another analogy - if you buy a car and put the wrong type of oil in it or inflate the tyres to the wrong pressure, bad things will probably happen.
If you don't know what you're doing with your own devices then maybe you need Apple to hold your hand.
Well, there are a few problems with your theories. First of all, there are vulnerabilities in Windows that merely visiting a web page clicked on from a Google search gets your machine infected. Or, you could visit a legitimate website that has mistakenly sold ad space to people hosting malware (this has occurred with both Foxnews.com and NYTimes.com), or you can download an app that you think is legitimate, but has spyware (like PrimoPDF).
I love seeing this "As long as you know what you're doing, and you're not an idiot, you're fine" attitude.
makinao
Mar 11, 02:28 AM
As of 0730 GMT, Philippines is now under alert level 2. Its now 0830 GMT. Bracing for tsunami in the next hour.
http://ndcc.gov.ph/attachments/article/165/NDRRMC%20Advisory%20Tsunami%20Bulletin%20No.%202,%2011March2011,%203PM.pdf
http://ndcc.gov.ph/attachments/article/165/NDRRMC%20Advisory%20Tsunami%20Bulletin%20No.%202,%2011March2011,%203PM.pdf
strabes
Apr 20, 07:09 PM
Please explain to me how I am experiencing a "degraded" experience on my current Android phone? I can do everything your iPhone can, plus tether at no additional cost and download any song I want for free.
The experience is degraded because Android lacks the Apple-integrated experience that we care about. Saying Android can do anything iPhone can do is like saying that both an Hyundai Accent and a Ferrari will get you from A to B. Yes, both can do this, but it's the experience that matters. The point isn't the fact that both have apps and both can browse the internet. Most people don't care about overclocking their phones or installing custom ROMs or "software freedom," whatever that means.
I'm a former two-year Android user. The transition to iPhone 4 was great.
The experience is degraded because Android lacks the Apple-integrated experience that we care about. Saying Android can do anything iPhone can do is like saying that both an Hyundai Accent and a Ferrari will get you from A to B. Yes, both can do this, but it's the experience that matters. The point isn't the fact that both have apps and both can browse the internet. Most people don't care about overclocking their phones or installing custom ROMs or "software freedom," whatever that means.
I'm a former two-year Android user. The transition to iPhone 4 was great.
MacCoaster
Oct 11, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by WanaPBnow
How does it run on an UltraSparc III 900?
I don't know. I'll run it on an UltraSPARC II sometime when I can. My step-dad's box isn't loaded up yet.
Lets get an assortment of score, there could be a code bug for the G4, I am not an expert, but 10-20 times slower sounds like science fiction.
Really? Code bug? How? It's a simple C/C#/Java/obj-C program. The G4 shouldn't be so slow with a task oh so simple. It's also no bug that Altivec doesn't include hardware double precision floating point. But then again, we weren't testing them with hardware support--just testing the pure CPU power. In fact, if you don't believe us--please, we beg you, look at the source code. Nothing Altivec/SSE/SSE2/3DNow/any of that crap there. 10-20 times slower isn't science fiction when it comes to double precision floating point on the G4. It simply blows.
How does it run on an UltraSparc III 900?
I don't know. I'll run it on an UltraSPARC II sometime when I can. My step-dad's box isn't loaded up yet.
Lets get an assortment of score, there could be a code bug for the G4, I am not an expert, but 10-20 times slower sounds like science fiction.
Really? Code bug? How? It's a simple C/C#/Java/obj-C program. The G4 shouldn't be so slow with a task oh so simple. It's also no bug that Altivec doesn't include hardware double precision floating point. But then again, we weren't testing them with hardware support--just testing the pure CPU power. In fact, if you don't believe us--please, we beg you, look at the source code. Nothing Altivec/SSE/SSE2/3DNow/any of that crap there. 10-20 times slower isn't science fiction when it comes to double precision floating point on the G4. It simply blows.
twoodcc
Oct 26, 12:29 AM
well i must say i'd be kinda suprized to see an update this early with apple. especially since i just bought a mac pro. i'd be mad if the prices of the one i just bought goes down
AJsAWiz
Sep 2, 12:27 AM
Did a funny bit on the new iPod Touch announcement. He said it was like an iPhone except it doesn't make calls . . . then he said, oh that IS an iPhone!
Sad but true :o
Come on, Apple . . . open this thing up to other cell phone providers. Perhaps those (like me) getting terrible reception and dropped calls might get better phone service. AND maybe we'll see a drop in rates for everyone. Competition is good for the market ;)
Sad but true :o
Come on, Apple . . . open this thing up to other cell phone providers. Perhaps those (like me) getting terrible reception and dropped calls might get better phone service. AND maybe we'll see a drop in rates for everyone. Competition is good for the market ;)
roadbloc
Apr 9, 06:15 PM
It's all about the platform.
Not the games then? I guess that is why the Pippin was such a tremendous success. Less than 80 games, but a great bit of hardware inside the box. Everyone wanted one. :rolleyes:
Not the games then? I guess that is why the Pippin was such a tremendous success. Less than 80 games, but a great bit of hardware inside the box. Everyone wanted one. :rolleyes:
Queso
Oct 26, 09:56 AM
Great news! Let's hope it's true, as it would be nice to see Apple forge forward with frequent updates in this manner as they have already done to an extent. The days of waiting months for a 100 MHz PPC speed bump are long gone! :D
To be fair, the days of waiting months for a 200MHz Intel speed bump are also long gone. This is a new paradigm from the chip manufacturers.
Pretty damn good though isn't it. :)
To be fair, the days of waiting months for a 200MHz Intel speed bump are also long gone. This is a new paradigm from the chip manufacturers.
Pretty damn good though isn't it. :)
goobot
Apr 20, 06:08 PM
did anyone ask anything about hspa+?
UberMac
Sep 12, 04:02 PM
Anybody else a little suspicious of just "802.11"...I'm thinking it's got to be 802.11n otherwise they would specify extreme. (Which means new adapters for computers on existing technology)
Also the small matter of the interface (which I love)...I reckon that's the "new" FrontRow interface we'll be gettign in Leopard which is nice to look forward to!
Uber
Also the small matter of the interface (which I love)...I reckon that's the "new" FrontRow interface we'll be gettign in Leopard which is nice to look forward to!
Uber
I'mAMac
Aug 29, 02:48 PM
Absolutely 100% false.
According to the American Automobile Manufacturer's Association, there were 169,994,128 vehicles in the world in 1970. As of 2001 there were 450 million.
Fine, then...per car, modern vehicles are now only 38 times cleaner than they were forty years ago. )
It isnt absolutley 100% false. There is an extreme amount of people on this planet. Look at that rathole of a place China. And in america, the immigrants. There are a hell of a lot of people and my solution: Nuke the middle-east.
and he said 40 years ago not 30 go back to 66 from NOW
According to the American Automobile Manufacturer's Association, there were 169,994,128 vehicles in the world in 1970. As of 2001 there were 450 million.
Fine, then...per car, modern vehicles are now only 38 times cleaner than they were forty years ago. )
It isnt absolutley 100% false. There is an extreme amount of people on this planet. Look at that rathole of a place China. And in america, the immigrants. There are a hell of a lot of people and my solution: Nuke the middle-east.
and he said 40 years ago not 30 go back to 66 from NOW
ccrandall77
Sep 12, 03:24 PM
This was the product I was really waiting for. It's cool, but I'm disappointed it doesn't have a DVD player and it looks like it probably won't work with EyeTV. So, I guess I'm sticking with my MacMini on the TV and hoping for a better version of FrontRow soon.
Of course, if this is like the Airport Express and can be used as a WiFi router (and hopefully it's 802.11n compliant), then I could see moving the iMac out of the bedroom and just hooking this baby up to a small LCD TV. I can always use Handbrake to create a streamable video file.
Of course, if this is like the Airport Express and can be used as a WiFi router (and hopefully it's 802.11n compliant), then I could see moving the iMac out of the bedroom and just hooking this baby up to a small LCD TV. I can always use Handbrake to create a streamable video file.
The Beatles
Apr 9, 12:49 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
Ahhh. A Gamer. Thanks.;) What you are seeing is called RDF. That field will not be around forever.
Ahhh. A Gamer. Thanks.;) What you are seeing is called RDF. That field will not be around forever.
javajedi
Oct 11, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by javajedi
What you are saying makes a lot of sense. Now that I think about, I too recall reading this somewhere.
Now that we know the real truth about the "better standard FPU", I thought it was time to shed some light on non vectorized G4 integer processing.
It still does 200,000,000 calculations, but this time I'm multiplying ints.
Motorola 7455 G4@800Mhz: 9 seconds (Native)
IBM 750FX G3@700Mhz: 7 seconds (Native)
Intel P4@2600Mhz 2 seconds (Java)
PowerPC 7455 integer processing is consierabley better than floating point (obviously less work doing ints), but still less per cycle than the Pentium 4.
Very intresting the G4 looses both floating point and integer to the IBM chip, at a 100MHz clock disadvantage.
I'm still waiting to see that "better standard FPU" in the G4. It seems the G4 is absolutely useless unless you are fortunate to have vectorized (AltiVec) code.
Alex, yeah, the native version was compiled under 3.1. It really is interesting to note that despite the 750FX's 100MHz clock disadvantage, it is able to outperform it by 22%. Since there is a 13% difference in clock speed, and if clocks were equal, the 750FX is technically 25% more efficient in scalar integer. I should also re-emphasize that I never bothered compiling the test natively for x86, I left it java, so it's not out of the question the P4 could do this in 1 second - and that is *NOT* using any vector libraries, just plain old integer math.
I've found some documentation on the Altivec C programming interface, and this weekend I'm going to make a first attempt at vectorizing it. The integer test should be no problem, but my FPMathTest app that did square roots will be more difficult. With Altivec, there is not recognized double precision floating point, so this complicates doing square roots. If you want more accurate, precision square roots, you have to do Newton Raphson refinement. In other words more ************ you have to go through. I believe in SSE2 you have double precision floating point ops, and if you were to vectorize it, you wouldn't have to compensate for this.
Another theory as to why the P4 is scoring so good is because if I'm not mistaking (and I'm not), the P4's ALU runs at double its clock. So in my case, 5.6GHz. I'm sure this relates to the issue.
I don't know how true this is, but I wouldn't be suprised if there is some truth to it, surely some food for thought:
http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/17368.html
The G4 was just a hacked-up G3 with AltiVec and an FPU (floating point unit) borrowed from the outdated 604
If this is the case, then no wonder why we are getting these abysmal scores, and no wonder why a 400mhz Celeron can nearly equal it, and no wonder why the 750FX can outperform it (different company, different fpu)
What you are saying makes a lot of sense. Now that I think about, I too recall reading this somewhere.
Now that we know the real truth about the "better standard FPU", I thought it was time to shed some light on non vectorized G4 integer processing.
It still does 200,000,000 calculations, but this time I'm multiplying ints.
Motorola 7455 G4@800Mhz: 9 seconds (Native)
IBM 750FX G3@700Mhz: 7 seconds (Native)
Intel P4@2600Mhz 2 seconds (Java)
PowerPC 7455 integer processing is consierabley better than floating point (obviously less work doing ints), but still less per cycle than the Pentium 4.
Very intresting the G4 looses both floating point and integer to the IBM chip, at a 100MHz clock disadvantage.
I'm still waiting to see that "better standard FPU" in the G4. It seems the G4 is absolutely useless unless you are fortunate to have vectorized (AltiVec) code.
Alex, yeah, the native version was compiled under 3.1. It really is interesting to note that despite the 750FX's 100MHz clock disadvantage, it is able to outperform it by 22%. Since there is a 13% difference in clock speed, and if clocks were equal, the 750FX is technically 25% more efficient in scalar integer. I should also re-emphasize that I never bothered compiling the test natively for x86, I left it java, so it's not out of the question the P4 could do this in 1 second - and that is *NOT* using any vector libraries, just plain old integer math.
I've found some documentation on the Altivec C programming interface, and this weekend I'm going to make a first attempt at vectorizing it. The integer test should be no problem, but my FPMathTest app that did square roots will be more difficult. With Altivec, there is not recognized double precision floating point, so this complicates doing square roots. If you want more accurate, precision square roots, you have to do Newton Raphson refinement. In other words more ************ you have to go through. I believe in SSE2 you have double precision floating point ops, and if you were to vectorize it, you wouldn't have to compensate for this.
Another theory as to why the P4 is scoring so good is because if I'm not mistaking (and I'm not), the P4's ALU runs at double its clock. So in my case, 5.6GHz. I'm sure this relates to the issue.
I don't know how true this is, but I wouldn't be suprised if there is some truth to it, surely some food for thought:
http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/17368.html
The G4 was just a hacked-up G3 with AltiVec and an FPU (floating point unit) borrowed from the outdated 604
If this is the case, then no wonder why we are getting these abysmal scores, and no wonder why a 400mhz Celeron can nearly equal it, and no wonder why the 750FX can outperform it (different company, different fpu)
NebulaClash
Apr 28, 08:47 AM
Oh, let these people have their fun. The market will prove them wrong. Each era begins with such folk who are good at the previous era's technology. They never see the turning points, but they still get swept up in history.
Blipp
Apr 13, 08:11 AM
I can't believe how many of you are writing off this app already after it's debut announcement which only covered new features and a new UI design. We essentially know NOTHING yet beyond it's new tricks, none of us have actually sat down and experienced a workflow with it. I haven't seen a single thing to suggest that features have been removed entirely or that the rest fo studio is now dead. At the absolute least Apple would put the rest of FCS2 onto the app store individually in their current form and from the attitudes I've seen in here most of you would love that they didn't update them in the least.
I too am suspicious about this release but I'm also optimistic. I don't assume that just because they didn't mention this or that that it must now be dead. We got our 64bit FCP that we've been dying for, we get background rendering and a wider range of native codecs (though we don't know which ones yet), and that all sounds like good news to me so far. I don't know what to expect from the rest of Studio as it'd be hard to imagine them revamping the entire suite unless they are truly being consumed by FCPX. If FCPX is able to switch between "Color" mode and "Motion" mode then so long as those modes remain full featured with a consistent UI across the board (something that has plagued the suite for a long time) then I can only see that as an upgrade. We'll find out more soon enough I'm sure.
If this truly does turn into what everyone is afraid of then oh well, I'm confident in my abilities to be able to adapt to an Avid or Adobe workflow. This isn't going to hold me back or ruin my parade.
I too am suspicious about this release but I'm also optimistic. I don't assume that just because they didn't mention this or that that it must now be dead. We got our 64bit FCP that we've been dying for, we get background rendering and a wider range of native codecs (though we don't know which ones yet), and that all sounds like good news to me so far. I don't know what to expect from the rest of Studio as it'd be hard to imagine them revamping the entire suite unless they are truly being consumed by FCPX. If FCPX is able to switch between "Color" mode and "Motion" mode then so long as those modes remain full featured with a consistent UI across the board (something that has plagued the suite for a long time) then I can only see that as an upgrade. We'll find out more soon enough I'm sure.
If this truly does turn into what everyone is afraid of then oh well, I'm confident in my abilities to be able to adapt to an Avid or Adobe workflow. This isn't going to hold me back or ruin my parade.
rasmasyean
Mar 12, 03:34 AM
What the hell? Why doesn't the wind blow it into China instead??? :D
Anyways, that seems kinda extreme. That looks worse than a nuclear missle strike.
Anyways, that seems kinda extreme. That looks worse than a nuclear missle strike.
Blipp
Apr 13, 08:36 AM
I believe you. . . but do you have a link. I haven't dug around a lot for it yet. That's really my biggest concern with this update.
I don't have a link for you but I too remember them saying you could run the entire app from the keyboard though I don't remember them specifically mentioning customizing hotkeys.
I don't have a link for you but I too remember them saying you could run the entire app from the keyboard though I don't remember them specifically mentioning customizing hotkeys.
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